Morality question

Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Nils Tanner

2004-06-08 19:38:31 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Define "morally"

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-08 20:08:27 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Only when cheating in multi-player games. This begs the question, how
is cheating defined? Do you consider cheating just to be hacks, or do
you think scripts are cheating to? I think when you program scripts
that combine game functions to create a new one (such as conc-jumping
scripts in Half-Life) it should be called cheating. How it could be
banned, I don't know.

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Jumpkick

2004-06-08 20:52:08 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor setups so
you can see more than your opponents

xTenn

2004-06-08 20:57:49 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor setups so
you can see more than your opponents

With that definition using a better controller, mouse, wheel, etc. than the
average would be cheating...

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-08 22:17:42 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor setups so
you can see more than your opponents

There's nothing wrong with having a better setup than the other fellow,
and if the game allows for multiple monitors than go ahead (otherwise
this would be a hack and therefore cheating).

Take TFC, which I play as an engineer. I have a button binded to the
"detonate dispenser" command, which isn't something you can do through
the menu you have to use the console. The reason this isn't the same as
cheating is because you do have the option of detonating your dispenser
through the drop-down menu, I'm just taking a shortcut, and it's only
one command. Now, these people who use scripts with multiple commands
aren't playing fairly, they have preprogrammed their buttons so that
they throw their grenades at the perfect time, or to grenade jump
perfectly, etc, all with the push of a single button. This is going
above and beyond the normal interface, this could legitimately be called
a hack, as after all a hack is a method of taking advantage of some
weakness in the software, which is all a script is.

--
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heard all day."
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Jumpkick

2004-06-09 09:13:39 UTC

I was just kidding guys...

Highlandish

2004-06-09 09:27:30 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Only when cheating in multi-player games. This begs the question,
how is cheating defined? Do you consider cheating just to be
hacks, or do you think scripts are cheating to? I think when you
program scripts that combine game functions to create a new one
(such as conc-jumping scripts in Half-Life) it should be called
cheating. How it could be banned, I don't know.

I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor
setups so you can see more than your opponents

There's nothing wrong with having a better setup than the other
fellow, and if the game allows for multiple monitors than go ahead
(otherwise this would be a hack and therefore cheating).
Take TFC, which I play as an engineer. I have a button binded to the
"detonate dispenser" command, which isn't something you can do through
the menu you have to use the console. The reason this isn't the same
as cheating is because you do have the option of detonating your
dispenser through the drop-down menu, I'm just taking a shortcut, and
it's only one command. Now, these people who use scripts with
multiple commands aren't playing fairly, they have preprogrammed
their buttons so that they throw their grenades at the perfect time,
or to grenade jump perfectly, etc, all with the push of a single
button. This is going above and beyond the normal interface, this
could legitimately be called a hack, as after all a hack is a method
of taking advantage of some weakness in the software, which is all a
script is.

but because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed online even
with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a cheat. the person who
doesn't install the cfg files and installs them is merely disadvantaged, but
the user cant be considered a cheat.

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Clemens Schmitz

2004-06-09 10:51:39 UTC

Post by Highlandish
because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed online even
with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a cheat.

So you take the position that evrything that isn't forbidden by the game
is implicty allowed?

Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in monopoly
and take their money? There is nothing int he rules against it, so it
must be allowed by the game...

Highlandish

2004-06-09 12:34:55 UTC

Post by Highlandish
because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed online
even with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a cheat.

So you take the position that evrything that isn't forbidden by the
game is implicty allowed?
Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in monopoly
and take their money? There is nothing int he rules against it, so it
must be allowed by the game...

you can bash every one up as long as it is agreed that any body can do it
too during the game. scripting isn't forbidden, therefore its not a cheat

--
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out, saying how can you drink that stuff, I replied "and you think I'm
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Union Kane

2004-06-09 19:20:22 UTC

Post by Highlandish
because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed online
even with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a cheat.

So you take the position that evrything that isn't forbidden by the
game is implicty allowed?
Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in monopoly
and take their money? There is nothing int he rules against it, so it
must be allowed by the game...

you can bash every one up as long as it is agreed that any body can do it
too during the game. scripting isn't forbidden, therefore its not a cheat

Obviously there's no written rules on what is or isn't cheating, but there
is a general consensus among the gaming community. Using scripts can not be
forbidden, but the general consensus is that it is cheating. A good example
would also be spawn killing in a game that allows respawns. It's not
forbidden, there isn't something in the software to prevent it. Some things
are left up to us as the people who play the games to kind of feel out a
code of conduct. The general consensus on spawn killing is that it is not a
fair way to play the game.

Highlandish

2004-06-09 22:29:47 UTC

Post by Union Kane

Post by Highlandish
because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed
online even with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a
cheat.

So you take the position that evrything that isn't forbidden by
the game is implicty allowed?
Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in
monopoly and take their money? There is nothing int he rules
against it, so it must be allowed by the game...

you can bash every one up as long as it is agreed that any body can
do it too during the game. scripting isn't forbidden, therefore its
not a cheat

Obviously there's no written rules on what is or isn't cheating, but
there is a general consensus among the gaming community. Using
scripts can not be forbidden, but the general consensus is that it is
cheating. A good example would also be spawn killing in a game that
allows respawns. It's not forbidden, there isn't something in the
software to prevent it. Some things are left up to us as the people
who play the games to kind of feel out a code of conduct. The
general consensus on spawn killing is that it is not a fair way to
play the game.

but the point is that both sides can spawn kill, it takes all the enjoyment
out of a game, but its not cheating when all parties can be equal.

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Union Kane

2004-06-10 20:16:17 UTC

Post by Union Kane

Post by Highlandish
because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed
online even with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a
cheat.

So you take the position that evrything that isn't forbidden by
the game is implicty allowed?
Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in
monopoly and take their money? There is nothing int he rules
against it, so it must be allowed by the game...

you can bash every one up as long as it is agreed that any body can
do it too during the game. scripting isn't forbidden, therefore its
not a cheat

Obviously there's no written rules on what is or isn't cheating, but
there is a general consensus among the gaming community. Using
scripts can not be forbidden, but the general consensus is that it is
cheating. A good example would also be spawn killing in a game that
allows respawns. It's not forbidden, there isn't something in the
software to prevent it. Some things are left up to us as the people
who play the games to kind of feel out a code of conduct. The
general consensus on spawn killing is that it is not a fair way to
play the game.

but the point is that both sides can spawn kill, it takes all the enjoyment
out of a game, but its not cheating when all parties can be equal.
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But as I said general consensus is that it is not a fair tactic. Things are
not always fair, but in this case it is with in our power to make, or keep
things fair. So in the case of scripts, to keep things fair, it is best not
to use them. To be honest if you have to find loop holes or gray areas in a
game in order to be competitive or better at it, then really it's no
different then an athlete using a drug that hasn't been banned yet to get an
edge. No one wants to "try and try again." Everyone wants to be good now
as soon that game is in their dvd drive. However I won't call it cheating if
it's agreed by both teams (in the case of squad games) that certain tactics
are allowed.

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-09 22:04:33 UTC

Post by Clemens Schmitz
Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in monopoly
and take their money? There is nothing int he rules against it, so it
must be allowed by the game...

you can bash every one up as long as it is agreed that any body can do it
too during the game. scripting isn't forbidden, therefore its not a cheat

If you are automating something that requires skill, it's cheating.

--
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heard all day."
--Arthur Dent

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Union Kane

2004-06-10 20:17:04 UTC

Post by Clemens Schmitz
Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in monopoly
and take their money? There is nothing int he rules against it, so it
must be allowed by the game...

you can bash every one up as long as it is agreed that any body can do it
too during the game. scripting isn't forbidden, therefore its not a cheat

If you are automating something that requires skill, it's cheating.

Good point, and well said.

Brian Siano

2004-06-11 15:46:55 UTC

Post by Clemens Schmitz
Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in monopoly
and take their money? There is nothing int he rules against it, so it
must be allowed by the game...

you can bash every one up as long as it is agreed that any body can do it
too during the game. scripting isn't forbidden, therefore its not a cheat

If you are automating something that requires skill, it's cheating.

What about the skill required to automate something?

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-11 17:13:14 UTC

Post by Brian Siano

Post by Grand Inquisitor
If you are automating something that requires skill, it's cheating.

What about the skill required to automate something?

Totally un-related to the game. Besides, most people just copy their
scripts off of websites.

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hammerstein

2004-06-09 12:45:10 UTC

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 12:51:39 +0200, Clemens Schmitz

Post by Highlandish
because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed online even
with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a cheat.

So you take the position that evrything that isn't forbidden by the game
is implicty allowed?
Do you think it is cheating to beat up your fellow players in monopoly
and take their money? There is nothing int he rules against it, so it
must be allowed by the game...

He specifically described a scenario in an online game - you've
changed the context to make an invalid point. If you we're playing
_online_ monopoly, chances are that you couldn't beat the person up
anyhow, unless there was a button for "virtual pasting" or something,
which there isn't.

In an online game, you don't need to specify the rules, simply the
boundaries for actions. With a board game, the context is entirely
different as the boundaries are self-imposed, but the rules are
explicit - as in, you can only do, in game terms, what is defined in
the rules. Therefore, in monopoly, because it doesn't say in the rules
that you _can_ beat your opponent up, you would be performing an act
that was outside of the gameing domain and therefore, technically, you
wouldn't be playing the game at all.

However, it's unlikely that in the event of you liberating Mayfair be
means of a sound thrashing, the person in question will complain about
you declaring yourself the winner.

If something is possibe within the realms of an online game and you
don't think it should be, that's just got cheat "potential". It's
peretty much down to the owner of the intellectual property to
arbitrate that and define it either way.

j.

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-09 21:59:54 UTC

Post by Highlandish
but because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed online even
with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a cheat. the person who
doesn't install the cfg files and installs them is merely disadvantaged, but
the user cant be considered a cheat.

Just because the game doesn't consider it cheating doesn't mean it's not
morally the same thing. Let me ask you a question, when a person uses a
script for perfect grenade-throwing or perfect grenade-jumping, is he
using a push-button solution in place of using actual skill? Yes, he
is. There are plenty of people winning constantly at online games who
would be average players were it not for their use of scripts. You
don't have a problem with this?

--
"I like the cover: 'DON'T PANIC.' It's the first sensible thing I've
heard all day."
--Arthur Dent

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Highlandish

2004-06-10 00:00:49 UTC

Post by Highlandish
but because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed
online even with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a cheat.
the person who doesn't install the cfg files and installs them is
merely disadvantaged, but the user cant be considered a cheat.

Just because the game doesn't consider it cheating doesn't mean it's
not morally the same thing. Let me ask you a question, when a person
uses a script for perfect grenade-throwing or perfect
grenade-jumping, is he using a push-button solution in place of using
actual skill? Yes, he is. There are plenty of people winning
constantly at online games who would be average players were it not
for their use of scripts. You don't have a problem with this?

but the game allows scripts. and anybody can do it. those people that choose
not to use scripts are like people who choose to play with one hand tied
behind their backs. a server front page should include a downloadable patch
with the latest scripts for the game before a person can join so that all
people can be equal, or disallow script altogether.

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Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-10 19:11:21 UTC

Post by Highlandish
but the game allows scripts. and anybody can do it. those people that choose
not to use scripts are like people who choose to play with one hand tied
behind their backs. a server front page should include a downloadable patch
with the latest scripts for the game before a person can join so that all
people can be equal, or disallow script altogether.

But they never intended people to use scripts the way they are using
them. Instead of using skill to grenade jump they just hit a button.
Replacing skill with an easy solution IS CHEATING.

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Highlandish

2004-06-11 00:24:50 UTC

Post by Highlandish
but the game allows scripts. and anybody can do it. those people
that choose not to use scripts are like people who choose to play
with one hand tied behind their backs. a server front page should
include a downloadable patch with the latest scripts for the game
before a person can join so that all people can be equal, or
disallow script altogether.

But they never intended people to use scripts the way they are using
them. Instead of using skill to grenade jump they just hit a button.
Replacing skill with an easy solution IS CHEATING.

if it wasn't intended, they would release a patch to disable the functions.

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Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-11 02:05:31 UTC

Post by Highlandish
but the game allows scripts. and anybody can do it. those people
that choose not to use scripts are like people who choose to play
with one hand tied behind their backs. a server front page should
include a downloadable patch with the latest scripts for the game
before a person can join so that all people can be equal, or
disallow script altogether.

But they never intended people to use scripts the way they are using
them. Instead of using skill to grenade jump they just hit a button.
Replacing skill with an easy solution IS CHEATING.

if it wasn't intended, they would release a patch to disable the functions.

That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Valve knows it's
not really feasible. The trick would be to ban certain types of
scripts, but how would you do that?

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Highlandish

2004-06-11 03:34:21 UTC

Post by Highlandish
but the game allows scripts. and anybody can do it. those people
that choose not to use scripts are like people who choose to play
with one hand tied behind their backs. a server front page should
include a downloadable patch with the latest scripts for the game
before a person can join so that all people can be equal, or
disallow script altogether.

But they never intended people to use scripts the way they are using
them. Instead of using skill to grenade jump they just hit a
button. Replacing skill with an easy solution IS CHEATING.

if it wasn't intended, they would release a patch to disable the functions.

That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Valve knows
it's not really feasible. The trick would be to ban certain types of
scripts, but how would you do that?

you could patch out the combination of functions perhaps

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Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-11 14:02:09 UTC

Post by Grand Inquisitor
That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Valve knows
it's not really feasible. The trick would be to ban certain types of
scripts, but how would you do that?

you could patch out the combination of functions perhaps

Scripts are sort of like little programs, and one can always program a
way around a problem. I just wish gamers ought not use them. I don't
see how a person can take any pride in their wins in online gaming if
they've used scripts instead of skills.

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Highlandish

2004-06-11 23:46:30 UTC

Post by Grand Inquisitor
That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Valve knows
it's not really feasible. The trick would be to ban certain types
of scripts, but how would you do that?

you could patch out the combination of functions perhaps

I will agree with you here. I haven't played online since TFC and Jedi
Knight 1. on dial up there isn't a point, but if I did play online it would
be to win by skill. offline I use every code I find because I'm playing for
the fun of it, not for a challenge. I'm not back-pedalling though, I have no
problems with scripts as long as the game allows them, and as long as every
one has access to them.

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mattchu

2004-06-11 17:06:40 UTC

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:05:31 GMT, Grand Inquisitor

Post by Grand Inquisitor
But they never intended people to use scripts the way they are using
them. Instead of using skill to grenade jump they just hit a button.
Replacing skill with an easy solution IS CHEATING.

if it wasn't intended, they would release a patch to disable the functions.

That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Valve knows it's
not really feasible. The trick would be to ban certain types of
scripts, but how would you do that?

Perhaps script usage could be reported to the server log. That way
admins there on the spot could determine if a verbal warning is
necessary and could consider kicking repeated offenders. It's not
ideal though expecting an admin to make judgement calls on which
scripts are acceptable. What would be better is a code of conduct for
proper, gaming etiquette amongst gamers, but that exists (or at least
should) already.

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Highlandish

2004-06-11 23:51:18 UTC

Post by mattchu
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:05:31 GMT, Grand Inquisitor

Post by Grand Inquisitor
But they never intended people to use scripts the way they are
using them. Instead of using skill to grenade jump they just hit
a button. Replacing skill with an easy solution IS CHEATING.

if it wasn't intended, they would release a patch to disable the functions.

That would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Valve knows
it's not really feasible. The trick would be to ban certain types of
scripts, but how would you do that?

the problem is that scripts work on the client side without changing
anything in the game engine, the server side wouldn't be able to detect a
script. the only way to remove script usage would be to release a formal
patch that delays combination moves to remove their effectiveness, the only
way to connect tot the server would be with the latest version (as it
happens now). however this dumb's down a game and nobody likes that.

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Gandalf Parker

2004-06-12 15:32:49 UTC

Post by mattchu
Perhaps script usage could be reported to the server log. That way
admins there on the spot could determine if a verbal warning is
necessary and could consider kicking repeated offenders. It's not
ideal though expecting an admin to make judgement calls on which
scripts are acceptable. What would be better is a code of conduct
for proper, gaming etiquette amongst gamers, but that exists (or at
least should) already.

the problem is that scripts work on the client side without changing
anything in the game engine, the server side wouldn't be able to
detect a script. the only way to remove script usage would be to
release a formal patch that delays combination moves to remove their
effectiveness, the only way to connect tot the server would be with
the latest version (as it happens now). however this dumb's down a
game and nobody likes that.

We have fought scripts in our game (a MUD game).

Detection can be accomplished by watching for repeating actions and the
speed they happen. Of course the scripter might put a pause in his
script, and a random in his actions, but if he does then its no longer a
script that people would complain much about.

As for combating scripts in general, randoms are the enemy of scripters.
More randoms in a game can do alot to fighting scripting (and I like more
randoms in a game anyway)

As for the comment made earlier in the thread about "how can someone take
pride in gaming by scipting" the answer is simple. It depends on if the
person takes more pride in their gaming, or mroe pride in their
scripting. :)

Gandalf Parker

Highlandish

2004-06-12 23:41:23 UTC

Post by Gandalf Parker

the problem is that scripts work on the client side without changing
anything in the game engine, the server side wouldn't be able to
detect a script. the only way to remove script usage would be to
release a formal patch that delays combination moves to remove their
effectiveness, the only way to connect tot the server would be with
the latest version (as it happens now). however this dumb's down a
game and nobody likes that.

We have fought scripts in our game (a MUD game).
Detection can be accomplished by watching for repeating actions and
the speed they happen. Of course the scripter might put a pause in his
script, and a random in his actions, but if he does then its no
longer a script that people would complain much about.
As for combating scripts in general, randoms are the enemy of
scripters. More randoms in a game can do alot to fighting scripting
(and I like more randoms in a game anyway)
As for the comment made earlier in the thread about "how can someone
take pride in gaming by scipting" the answer is simple. It depends on
if the person takes more pride in their gaming, or mroe pride in their
scripting. :)
Gandalf Parker

precisely! as along as someone knows the game they're entering is a
scripters domain, where they're showing off their programming skills, rather
than playing a default game, scripters can take pride and no one should
complain.

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tssk

2004-07-05 01:52:01 UTC

Post by Highlandish
but because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed
online even with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a cheat.
the person who doesn't install the cfg files and installs them is
merely disadvantaged, but the user cant be considered a cheat.

Just because the game doesn't consider it cheating doesn't mean it's
not morally the same thing. Let me ask you a question, when a person
uses a script for perfect grenade-throwing or perfect
grenade-jumping, is he using a push-button solution in place of using
actual skill? Yes, he is. There are plenty of people winning
constantly at online games who would be average players were it not
for their use of scripts. You don't have a problem with this?

A quick question, if you had a script that at the push of one button
dropped all other players health instantely to zero would you use it?

Would you think it was fair?

Highlandish

2004-07-05 07:06:00 UTC

Post by tssk

Post by Highlandish
but because the game allows such scripts to be made and executed
online even with punkbuster running, it cant be considered a
cheat. the person who doesn't install the cfg files and
installs them is merely disadvantaged, but the user cant be
considered a cheat.

Just because the game doesn't consider it cheating doesn't mean
it's not morally the same thing. Let me ask you a question, when
a person uses a script for perfect grenade-throwing or perfect
grenade-jumping, is he using a push-button solution in place of
using actual skill? Yes, he is. There are plenty of people
winning constantly at online games who would be average players
were it not for their use of scripts. You don't have a problem
with this?

but the game allows scripts. and anybody can do it. those people
that choose not to use scripts are like people who choose to play
with one hand tied behind their backs. a server front page should
include a downloadable patch with the latest scripts for the game
before a person can join so that all people can be equal, or
disallow script altogether.

A quick question, if you had a script that at the push of one button
dropped all other players health instantely to zero would you use it?
Would you think it was fair?

i wouldnt, that would be cheating.

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mattchu

2004-06-10 01:31:27 UTC

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 19:27:30 +1000, "Highlandish"

Post by Grand Inquisitor
Take TFC, which I play as an engineer. I have a button binded to the
"detonate dispenser" command, which isn't something you can do through
the menu you have to use the console. The reason this isn't the same
as cheating is because you do have the option of detonating your
dispenser through the drop-down menu, I'm just taking a shortcut, and
it's only one command. Now, these people who use scripts with
multiple commands aren't playing fairly, they have preprogrammed
their buttons so that they throw their grenades at the perfect time,
or to grenade jump perfectly, etc, all with the push of a single
button. This is going above and beyond the normal interface, this
could legitimately be called a hack, as after all a hack is a method
of taking advantage of some weakness in the software, which is all a
script is.

I strongly disagree with this notion. Did you ever play Diablo 1?
Items were easily duplicated in that game and with a stat-increasing
potion it was easy to become a demi-god without using hacks. I
consider that cheating.

I also consider bunny hopping in first person shooters to be a form of
cheating since they are exploits that break the gameplay envisioned
originally by the developers. Rocket jumping in Quake 1 to skip to
the ends of certain maps is most certainly a cheat, but since that
only affects single player goals it is a matter of personal choice.
In Half-Life / Counter-Strike, bunny hopping in multiplayer can easily
be considered cheating although it involves no hacks or third party
software. It is important to note that it is impossible to
effectively bunny hope on most Counter-Strike servers now due to a
delay that occurs after a jump happens.

--
best regards, mattchu
np: the exploding hearts - still crazy

tssk

2004-07-05 01:50:17 UTC

Post by mattchu
I also consider bunny hopping in first person shooters to be a form of

cheating since they are exploits that break the gameplay envisioned
originally by the developers.

I love bunny hoppers in Battlefield. If I spot someone using it as a
regular tactic I try even harder to run them over with something big.

Noone can bunny hop a tank ;)

Strider

2004-07-05 10:51:41 UTC

tssk proclaimed...

Post by tssk
I love bunny hoppers in Battlefield. If I spot someone using it as a
regular tactic I try even harder to run them over with something big.
Noone can bunny hop a tank ;)

Heh

Joe62

2004-07-05 22:47:18 UTC

Post by tssk
Noone can bunny hop a tank ;)

I love the Call of Duty 1.1 patch. Slows those bunny-hoppers down,
makes 'em easy pickings. NOTHING I enjoy more than killing
bunny-hoppers.

Mean_Chlorine

2004-06-09 10:04:46 UTC

Post by Jumpkick
I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor setups so
you can see more than your opponents

LOL! The classical defence of a cheater: "I'm only cheating to level
the playing field"!

Highlandish

2004-06-09 09:24:33 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Only when cheating in multi-player games. This begs the question,
how is cheating defined? Do you consider cheating just to be
hacks, or do you think scripts are cheating to? I think when you
program scripts that combine game functions to create a new one
(such as conc-jumping scripts in Half-Life) it should be called
cheating. How it could be banned, I don't know.

I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor
setups so you can see more than your opponents

if its a natural function of the game, then how could it be a cheat? its not
everyone else's problem if you cant take advantage of the latest technology.
this is a case of you being disadvantaged, not the rest of the world
cheating against you.

--
judgmental yourself?

Take out the _CURSEING to reply to me

Jumpkick

2004-06-09 12:44:21 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Only when cheating in multi-player games. This begs the question,
how is cheating defined? Do you consider cheating just to be
hacks, or do you think scripts are cheating to? I think when you
program scripts that combine game functions to create a new one
(such as conc-jumping scripts in Half-Life) it should be called
cheating. How it could be banned, I don't know.

I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor
setups so you can see more than your opponents

I thought it was clear that this was a joke.Only Mean Chlorine seemed to get
it, though : /

Dr. Richard Cranium

2004-06-09 11:46:44 UTC

like in the gene pool requires more chlorine ?

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Only when cheating in multi-player games. This begs the question,
how is cheating defined? Do you consider cheating just to be
hacks, or do you think scripts are cheating to? I think when you
program scripts that combine game functions to create a new one
(such as conc-jumping scripts in Half-Life) it should be called
cheating. How it could be banned, I don't know.

I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor
setups so you can see more than your opponents

if its a natural function of the game, then how could it be a cheat? its

not

Post by Highlandish
everyone else's problem if you cant take advantage of the latest

technology.

Post by Highlandish
this is a case of you being disadvantaged, not the rest of the world
cheating against you.

I thought it was clear that this was a joke.Only Mean Chlorine seemed to get
it, though : /

................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access

Post by Grand Inquisitor
at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<

-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-09 22:05:55 UTC

Post by Highlandish
if its a natural function of the game, then how could it be a cheat? its not
everyone else's problem if you cant take advantage of the latest technology.
this is a case of you being disadvantaged, not the rest of the world
cheating against you.

Scripts-as-cheats were unintended, not something Valve planned.

--
"I like the cover: 'DON'T PANIC.' It's the first sensible thing I've
heard all day."
--Arthur Dent

Grand Inquisitor
http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost

Eric R.

2004-06-10 13:33:40 UTC

Post by Jumpkick
I define it as using 1920x1440 resolution and / or multimonitor setups so
you can see more than your opponents

Come one, we all know that poor people deserve to lose.

-Eric

John Salerno

2004-06-08 20:37:46 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Your question assumes morality.

Xomicron

2004-06-08 21:02:34 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Your question assumes morality.

Society exists because it assumes morality.

Dr. Richard Cranium

2004-06-08 17:30:19 UTC

and gamers ? what constraint's are put on the definition of "fun" ?

what if cheating in any form were to overcome a personal handicap or like
in golf. Maybe someone HAS to use three monitors because they have
"trochlear nerve palsy " or" "clumsiosis" about the keyboard, mouse,
controller - however; has a strong desire to remain within his peer group
and Society in general and not be a little wallflower on the wall. Let the
little girl dance ! and keep the obvious cheating subtle and "screened" by
the ISP serving up the game. FF VII keeps you game character on their
servers ya.

so isn't you statement all about "choices" and "degrees of cheating" and
"acceptable cheating", whereas acceptable cheating starts at the moment
someone takes exception, or gets unfairly repressed to enjoy himself in a
game.

Do you sit there at YOUR computer and tell yourself "I'm NOT going to play
this game, because I KNOW everyone else cheats with this game ?

sorry, if i digress from the original intent of the question posted at the
top - but I had an extra 2 cents.

i feel really good that i used the "money hack" in chapter 1 to buy the
search sphere then and there, well in advance of chapter 3. I bet you are
just chomping at the bit to ask me how that changed the gameplay with Yuna,
and Rikku. aren't ya. See but - then - this is Yuna's story and MY game in
the solitary confines of my game room in my house and no one gets hurt ya.
So if i might further the example. That IS the only cheat i've used on FF
X-2 and i have them *all* ready to go ya.

going nowhere with this and i am up to 3 1/2 cents opps,

so much of me,

** No Fate **

cheers,
dracman
Tomb Raider: Shotgun City
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tomb.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.org/traod/traod.html
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tombraider1/tombraider1pictures.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tombraider1/tombraider1midaspics.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.com/uzi.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tomb2.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.com/medipak.htm

**savegame editors all versions Tomb Raider & TRAOD godmode
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tr2code.htm

http://www.smokeypoint.org/farCry.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.com/3dfx.htm
http://www.smokeypoint.com/My_PC.htm

** Win2k and winXP hi-res with TR1
http://www.smokeypoint.com/glidos.htm

** Tomb Raider 1 add on UB levels
http://www.smokeypoint.com/tomb2.htm#Tova

** GTA III vice City Character MOD
http://www.smokeypoint.com/uzi.htm#gta3

... so much of me...

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Your question assumes morality.

Society exists because it assumes morality.

................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access

at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<

-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

John Salerno

2004-06-08 22:44:46 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Your question assumes morality.

Society exists because it assumes morality.

How is that relevant? In a discussion of morality, it's appropriate to call
into question our assumptions before proceeding with the question. We aren't
talking about society.

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-08 22:18:27 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Your question assumes morality.

Yeah, if we could only be like the enlightened fascists and communists,
who did away with concepts of "morality."

--
"I like the cover: 'DON'T PANIC.' It's the first sensible thing I've
heard all day."
--Arthur Dent

Grand Inquisitor
http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost

John Salerno

2004-06-08 22:45:56 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Your question assumes morality.

Yeah, if we could only be like the enlightened fascists and
communists, who did away with concepts of "morality."

Yeah, because *that* is why they failed.

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-09 00:53:24 UTC

Post by Grand Inquisitor
Yeah, if we could only be like the enlightened fascists and
communists, who did away with concepts of "morality."

Yeah, because *that* is why they failed.

You're being sarcastic but you're right. When a society pretends
morality is relative (which means it doesn't really exist), then it does
immoral things.

--
"I like the cover: 'DON'T PANIC.' It's the first sensible thing I've
heard all day."
--Arthur Dent

Grand Inquisitor
http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost

John Salerno

2004-06-09 02:03:59 UTC

Post by Grand Inquisitor
Yeah, if we could only be like the enlightened fascists and
communists, who did away with concepts of "morality."

Yeah, because *that* is why they failed.

You're being sarcastic but you're right. When a society pretends
morality is relative (which means it doesn't really exist), then it
does immoral things.

Others have also asked for a definition of morality, so I don't think it's
much of a stretch from that to claim that the foundation of the original
question presupposes something that isn't even there.

Daniel Kolle

2004-06-09 12:09:32 UTC

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:53:24 GMT, Grand Inquisitor

Post by Grand Inquisitor
Yeah, if we could only be like the enlightened fascists and
communists, who did away with concepts of "morality."

Yeah, because *that* is why they failed.

You're being sarcastic but you're right. When a society pretends
morality is relative (which means it doesn't really exist), then it does
immoral things.

And what about individuals with relative moralities? Are they immoral?

--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, and Krzysztof Penderecki are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.

Xomicron

2004-06-09 12:27:27 UTC

Post by Daniel Kolle
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 00:53:24 GMT, Grand Inquisitor

Post by Grand Inquisitor
Yeah, if we could only be like the enlightened fascists and
communists, who did away with concepts of "morality."

Yeah, because *that* is why they failed.

You're being sarcastic but you're right. When a society pretends
morality is relative (which means it doesn't really exist), then it
does immoral things.

And what about individuals with relative moralities? Are they immoral?

Morality isn't relative. There are only people who pretend it is.

John Salerno

2004-06-10 02:27:48 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Morality isn't relative. There are only people who pretend it is.

LOL. You've been duped!

mattchu

2004-06-10 06:57:50 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Morality isn't relative. There are only people who pretend it is.

Is it wrong for polyandry to be an accepted practice in parts of the
world? Says who? It's a society and their relative set of morals
that says so. They determine what is acceptable and what is not.
While Americans might disagree with polyandry, who are we to tell
another society such as that as has existed in Thailand that they are
wrong? Morality is relative to a society (except to those who are
blinded by dogma -they toss reason right out the window).
--
best regards, mattchu
np: the exploding hearts - still crazy

Xomicron

2004-06-10 13:05:46 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Morality isn't relative. There are only people who pretend it is.

You're basically saying that there's nothing wrong with forced abortions in
China, Muslims crashing airliners into the World Trade Center, the
institution of making male children as young as 5 or 7 in Papua New
Guinea felate the older males in the tribe, and slavery in parts of Africa
is perfectly acceptable all because it is a normal part of their culture.

What today tries to sell itself as relativism is nothing more than
nihilism and inaction - being a poseur on the sidelines, decrying any
action, any dearly held ideals while being cynical and smug. Sounds a lot
like the French, doesn't it? Of course it's not really relativism. It
simply means trashing Western Civilization while finding excuses for every
murderous dictator. Furthermore - it can be activated as fast as
de-activated. Whenever there's a cause the dastardly Left wants to fight
for, all of a sudden we're surrounded by absolute values. I guess they
call this lack of principle and inconsistency "situational ethics". Just
one more reason to never listen to any croaking from the Left.

Tron

2004-06-10 15:10:26 UTC

Morality is relative to a society

Post by Xomicron
You're basically saying that there's nothing wrong with forced abortions in
China,

Which most of their society doesn't agree with. Nice try though.

Post by Xomicron
Muslims crashing airliners into the World Trade Center,

In the case of many radical Islamic sects, the West is a perverse culture
that must be stopped. Their society has said that destroying non-beleivers
in this fashion is acceptable. Most everyone else thinks they're radical
fundamentalists who need to get laid more often.

Post by Xomicron
institution of making male children as young as 5 or 7 in Papua New
Guinea felate the older males in the tribe,

They've been doing it for longer then there have been Thanksgivings in
America. It seems to work for them. Again, though - that's *their* society.

Post by Xomicron
and slavery in parts of Africa is perfectly acceptable all because it is

a normal part of their culture.

It is... "in their society". Here in western society, we frown on that sort
of stuff. In Papua, you'd be looking forward to your 5 yr old getting down
with you. Were you a radical Islamic fundamentalist, you'd have cheered when
the WTC took a hit. Were you in "parts of Africa" (or 17th century America)
you'd be wishing you had a slave of your own.

Because that is what your society has deemed 'ok'.

--
Tron
----
"You ate the whole bag of dumb, didn't you?" - Cliff Yablonski

Xomicron

2004-06-10 15:27:54 UTC

Post by mattchu
Morality is relative to a society

Post by Xomicron
You're basically saying that there's nothing wrong with forced
abortions in China,

Which most of their society doesn't agree with. Nice try though.

How do you know? Have you takem a poll? Why is that the criteria for
morality? What happens if society's views change? What happens if most of
society decides that all atheists should be killed? The majority of society
wants it. Who are you to judge?

Post by Xomicron
Muslims crashing airliners into the World Trade Center,

In the case of many radical Islamic sects, the West is a perverse
culture that must be stopped. Their society has said that destroying
non-beleivers in this fashion is acceptable. Most everyone else thinks
they're radical fundamentalists who need to get laid more often.

So you see nothing wrong with terrorism. Interesting. Why should we even
be fighting the terrorists. After all, it's right for them. Who are we to
judge.

Post by Xomicron
institution of making male children as young as 5 or 7 in Papua New
Guinea felate the older males in the tribe,

They've been doing it for longer then there have been Thanksgivings in
America. It seems to work for them. Again, though - that's *their* society.

Post by Xomicron
and slavery in parts of Africa is perfectly acceptable all because it
is a normal part of their culture.

It is... "in their society".

So there was nothing wrong with slavery in the United States before the
civil war.

Post by mattchu
Here in western society, we frown on that sort of stuff. In Papua, you'd
be looking forward to your 5 yr old getting down with you. Were you a
radical Islamic fundamentalist, you'd have cheered when the WTC took a
hit. Were you in "parts of Africa" (or 17th century America) you'd be
wishing you had a slave of your own.

Glad to see that you can justify the Holocaust as a moral act.

John Salerno

2004-06-10 23:05:30 UTC

Post by Xomicron
You're basically saying that there's nothing wrong with forced
abortions in China, Muslims crashing airliners into the World Trade
Center, the institution of making male children as young as 5 or 7 in
Papua New
Guinea felate the older males in the tribe, and slavery in parts of
Africa is perfectly acceptable all because it is a normal part of
their culture.

The question has nothing to do with what is 'acceptable.' What we are -- or
at least what *I* am -- saying is that there are no such things as universal
morals, and therefore morality technically doesn't even exist. Meaning that
all those things you listed above are not immoral, because 'immoral' has no
meaning.

Jim Vieira

2004-06-11 00:24:57 UTC

Another fool who fancies himself an intellectual and subscribes to
the idiocy known as moral reletavism.

Grand Inquisitor

2004-06-11 02:06:45 UTC

Post by John Salerno
The question has nothing to do with what is 'acceptable.' What we are -- or
at least what *I* am -- saying is that there are no such things as universal
morals, and therefore morality technically doesn't even exist. Meaning that
all those things you listed above are not immoral, because 'immoral' has no
meaning.

If morality doesn't exist, then you do not have the right to say it's
wrong for me to come to your house and stomp on your head. That is
completely hypothetical, btw, I'm not making a threat, just a point.

--
"Waddup peeps? Let's get this Constizzitutional Party started!"
--Madison

Grand Inquisitor
http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost

John Salerno

2004-06-11 05:14:16 UTC

Post by John Salerno
The question has nothing to do with what is 'acceptable.' What we
are -- or at least what *I* am -- saying is that there are no such
things as universal morals, and therefore morality technically
doesn't even exist. Meaning that all those things you listed above
are not immoral, because 'immoral' has no meaning.

I couldn't (and wouldn't) call that 'wrong' in a moral sense.

Xomicron

2004-06-11 02:17:10 UTC

Post by John Salerno
The question has nothing to do with what is 'acceptable.' What we are --
or at least what *I* am -- saying is that there are no such things as
universal morals, and therefore morality technically doesn't even exist.
Meaning that all those things you listed above are not immoral, because
'immoral' has no meaning.

Spoken like a fool.

John Salerno

2004-06-11 05:17:45 UTC

Post by Jim Vieira
Another fool who fancies himself an intellectual and subscribes to
the idiocy known as moral reletavism.

Spoken like a fool.

LOL. I love this defense people have of asserting that the person who makes
these kinds of claims must be 'prescribing' to something, as if I'm only
saying what others have said and I haven't come to my own conclusions.
Calling someone foolish, I suppose, is a temporary comeback, but it
certainly doesn't help to prove you right or me wrong.

John Salerno

2004-06-11 05:19:35 UTC

And just out of curiosity, Jim and Xomicron, if you don't mind telling me,
what religions are you? I'm assuming, if you believe in morality, you are
religious or spiritual in some way. They are very much connected notions. If
not, I'd like to hear how you justify universality morality without
spirituality or the like.

John

Daniel Kolle

2004-06-11 17:06:13 UTC

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:19:35 -0400, "John Salerno"

Post by John Salerno
And just out of curiosity, Jim and Xomicron, if you don't mind telling me,
what religions are you? I'm assuming, if you believe in morality, you are
religious or spiritual in some way. They are very much connected notions. If
not, I'd like to hear how you justify universality morality without
spirituality or the like.

It does not take a god to know that killing, theft, et cetera, are not
exactly nice things to do, John.

Post by John Salerno
John

--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, and Krzysztof Penderecki are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.

John Salerno

2004-06-11 17:20:49 UTC

Post by Daniel Kolle
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:19:35 -0400, "John Salerno"

Post by John Salerno
And just out of curiosity, Jim and Xomicron, if you don't mind
telling me, what religions are you? I'm assuming, if you believe in
morality, you are religious or spiritual in some way. They are very
much connected notions. If not, I'd like to hear how you justify
universality morality without spirituality or the like.

It does not take a god to know that killing, theft, et cetera, are not
exactly nice things to do, John.

You are absolutely right, but we aren't talking about what is 'nice', we are
talking about 'morality'. A hugely different concept. :)

The Lurker At The Threshold

2004-06-08 21:44:51 UTC

There is a special circle in the uttermost depths of hades for video game
cheats.
OTOH, computer game cheaters have been known to pass through the Pearly
Gates just fine.

J'Nrik
Former professional computer game cheat

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Aaron J. Bossig

2004-06-09 02:15:16 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

It's a complicated question, depending upon the circumstances.

If you're at home, playing on your own system, then no. You're only
cheating yourself out of a challenge, and if you're okay with that,
then that's all that matters.

If, however, you're playing against others, who believe you are not
cheating, then you are being dishonest. And that is morally wrong.

I would also say it would be dishonest to brag about an accomplishment
that was only possible because you cheated.

--
Aaron J. Bossig

http://www.GodsLabRat.com
http://www.Daily-Reviews.com

Mean_Chlorine

2004-06-09 10:23:40 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Firstly, in single player you can cheat to your hearts desire. This
upsets noone.

On to the issue of multiplayer. As has been pointed out in this
thread, morals are relative. There is no such thing as an absolute
moral, although christians would dearly like to think so. More, as has
also been pointed out, morals are defined by societal context.

This actually gives you an easy way of answering your question:

* Would the other people playing be upset at you if they knew what you
were doing?

If the answer is "yes", then your cheating is morally wrong.

Clemens Schmitz

2004-06-09 10:48:14 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

(...) As has been pointed out in this
thread, morals are relative. There is no such thing as an absolute
moral, although christians would dearly like to think so. More, as has
also been pointed out, morals are defined by societal context.
* Would the other people playing be upset at you if they knew what you
were doing?
If the answer is "yes", then your cheating is morally wrong.

This assumes that you know about the morality of the other players. As
oyu pointed out all morality is relative and you often do not have any
ideas about the other players morality this answer is meaningless in the
usual multiplayer context.

Assuming that the other players morailty is similar to your own is
convenient, but ultimately misleading.

Mean_Chlorine

2004-06-09 14:07:30 UTC

Post by Mean_Chlorine
* Would the other people playing be upset at you if they knew what you
were doing?
If the answer is "yes", then your cheating is morally wrong.

It is easy enough to find out. Log in to a Counterstrike or Americas
Army match, and ask "I've got this nifty aimbot and a hack which makes
enemies glow red and friendlies glow blue - is everyone OK with that"?

You will have no problems interpreting the reaction. In the context of
multiplayer games such as Counterstrike and Americas Army, cheating
is, according to the unwritten standards of the community of players,
considered immoral and wrong.

As a rule. There are exceptions. For instance it is very common for
clan players to cheat when playing "off duty" against non-clan
players, because they feel that codes of conduct only apply to clan
warfare, not when playing against lesser beings. Even then they tend
not to play under their normal nick when cheating, instead using
special "garbage accounts" so they don't risk losing their primary
account or tarnish their or their clans reputation.

Post by Clemens Schmitz
Assuming that the other players morailty is similar to your own is
convenient, but ultimately misleading.

It is clearly very rare that cheaters honestly don't realize that
others may consider their cheating to be wrong, as is evidenced by
their great unwillingness to reveal themselves as cheaters.

Highlandish

2004-06-09 09:22:08 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

not as far as I am concerned. I finished doom1 and a few games of the time
without cheats, but once I discovered the net I found game cheats. I have
archived every single pc cheat for every game in existence up until march
this year. some 300 mbs of text. I started to use cheats because as in the
original hexen and tombraider, I found it fucking annoying to continuously
die every time I failed a jump, and reloading was a pain in the bum. I play
fps/rpg's to explore the game makers world that they created. I don't play
to succeed or win, I don't get satisfaction from competition so I am not
cheating myself out of any ego trip by cheating in a game.

I don't invest myself in a game to the point that I need to get
gratification from it. I merely play to explore where I might not be able to
afford to go in real life. cheat codes remove the irritation factor that non
hardcore never experience.

I don't play online, but when I have in the past, I never cheated with codes
unless the game allowed everyone else to in a chaos deathmmatch (the
original Jedi knight games with x-wing characters and other non-multiplayer
hacked models, uber sabres and ubre gibs, unlimited force powers and
flying). we didn't have much choice as everyone was doing it regardless if
it was allowed, si it became more of a competition to see who could make or
find the best hacks.

--
To the world you're a person, to a person, you're the world.

Take out the _CURSEING to reply to me

Daniel Kolle

2004-06-09 11:57:34 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

No. Any more questions, troll?

--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, and Krzysztof Penderecki are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.

juha

2004-06-09 14:19:59 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

If you had to do it in order to save a life of an innocent 3 year old
girl, then I would say no. I guess it depends on the circumstances.

Xomicron

2004-06-09 14:22:48 UTC

Post by juha

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

If you had to do it in order to save a life of an innocent 3 year old
girl, then I would say no.

A girl in a video game?

Lightning Bug

2004-06-09 15:25:07 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

First of all, I do cheat, every now and then. more now than then.

Second, it is morally and completely wrong to cheat against living
creatures, ex: humans. It is not morally wrong to cheat against the
computer unless it is used to compete with another living player.

Also, cheating makes the game go faster. This in turns makes the
player bored with the game sooner and is left hungery for more.

Brian Siano

2004-06-09 16:18:13 UTC

Post by Lightning Bug

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

First of all, I do cheat, every now and then. more now than then.
Second, it is morally and completely wrong to cheat against living
creatures, ex: humans. It is not morally wrong to cheat against the
computer unless it is used to compete with another living player.
Also, cheating makes the game go faster. This in turns makes the
player bored with the game sooner and is left hungery for more.

There are times when "cheating" isn't well defined. Here's an example.
In Farcry's multiplayer Assault mode, one team has to capture three
flag-points, and the other team has to defend them. You can capture the
flags only in sequence: when Flag 1 is captured, Flag 2 lights up and
becomes capturable after a short interval, etc.

Now, in most Assault maps, it's possible for an attacker to make an
end-run around the defending team, and arrive at the next flag. There,
the attacker can wait until the previous flag is captured. When that
happens, he's right there at the next flag, and can capture it nearly
instantly. (The defenders spawn nearby, however.)

I've done this a lot, and it helps with a good, quick win. My attitude
is that it's a perfectly legitimate tactic. Yet I've been accused of
"cheating" by doing this.

The complaints I've heard are, frankly, utterly without merit. Some
players cite some phantom "tournament" play where this is prohibited.
But I've never found a server that uses those rules. Others compare it
to 'camping,' which has always struck me as a legitimate tactic,
especially for snipers.

I've pointed out that defenders are perfectly capable of sending someone
to check the other flags (and I do this myself when I'm defending).
Doing this doesn't require any weird hacks or patches, and the players
who do it are as vulnerable as anyone else. My attitude is, don't like
it? Kill the players. It's not like they're invulnerable or anything.

Andrew

2004-06-09 16:29:26 UTC

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 12:18:13 -0400, Brian Siano

Post by Brian Siano
Now, in most Assault maps, it's possible for an attacker to make an
end-run around the defending team, and arrive at the next flag. There,
the attacker can wait until the previous flag is captured. When that
happens, he's right there at the next flag, and can capture it nearly
instantly. (The defenders spawn nearby, however.)
I've done this a lot, and it helps with a good, quick win. My attitude
is that it's a perfectly legitimate tactic. Yet I've been accused of
"cheating" by doing this.

That isn't remotely a cheat, I wouldn't even call it poor form like
base camping in BF1942, it sounds like a perfectly valid tactic IMO.

--
Andrew. To email unscramble ***@gurjevgrzrboivbhf.pbz & remove spamtrap.
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim messages to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking a question.

Jordan Lund

2004-06-09 16:31:34 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Yes and no. If you're playing by yourself, there's nothing wrong with
it. If you are using cheats to cheat other players then yes, it's
morally wrong.

i.e. Camping on a spawn point in a FPS is cheap solo, but acceptable.
Doing it in multiplayer to increase your kills over other human
opponents is wrong.

- Jordan

Bateau

2004-06-09 22:05:19 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Fuck off.
--
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`-.-' K I N G O F T H E M O N S T E R S

Clarke

2004-06-13 20:52:16 UTC

Bateau wrote:

.-'`-.
/ | | \
/ | | \
|___|_|__ |
||<o>| <o>`|
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`|`-'__`-'|/
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<snip>

That has got to be the most ridiculously excessive sig I have ever seen.

Bateau

2004-06-14 11:58:15 UTC

Post by Bateau
.-'`-.
/ | | \
/ | | \
|___|_|__ |
||<o>| <o>`|
|| J_ )|
`|`-'__`-'|/
| `--' |
.-| |_
.-' \ / | |`-.
.-' `. /| | \
/ ````' | | \
<snip>
That has got to be the most ridiculously excessive sig I have ever seen.

NP!
--
.-'`-.
/ | | \
/ | | \
|___|_|__ |
||<o>| <o>`|
|| J_ )|
`|`-'__`-'|/
| `--' |
.-| |_
.-' \ / | |`-.
.-' `. /| | \
/ ````' | | \
|_____ | | L
.-' ___ `-. F F | | ||`-.___
.'.-' | `-. `. J J / | || _.>
/ /| | |`. \ | | |/ | ||_.-'
/ / | | | `. `. F F | |==============================
J / | | | \ L J J | | `:::::::. `:::::::.
FJ | | | |L J/ / | \ :::::::. :::::::\
J |() | () | () | () | J L/ | | ::::::: :::::::L
| F | .-'_ \ | | LJ | / L :::::::: :::::::J
| L | / \\ | | | L | | :::::::: ::::::::L
| L || ):|| | | | /| L :::::::: ::::::::|
J | ||:._.'::|| | | |----' | | :::::::: ::::::::| .---.
J | |J:::::::|| | | | _/\ | :::::::: ::::::::| /(@ o`.
LJ | \:::::/ | | | |---'\ | | :::::::: ::::::::| | /^^^
J L | `-:-' | | | F | \ | J :::::::: ::::::::| \ . \vvv
LJ()| () | () | () | F F | \ \--._L :::::::: ::::::::| \ `--'
J \ | | | | J J \ | | :::::::: ::::::::| \ `.
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/ | `-----' || >> || || || // || || \\ ||
/ F ||// || || || << || || \\||
J J | / |/ || |/ \\ |/ || \ |
J | |/ \| \| \| \|
`-.-' K I N G O F T H E M O N S T E R S

Xomicron

2004-06-26 19:48:09 UTC

Not to mention extremely homosexual.

ryu hayabusa OWNS link

2004-06-10 01:55:20 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

Cheating at anything is morally wrong. I'm suprised parents let their 5 year
olds on the internet.

R420

2004-06-10 07:40:36 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

what is morality (to you) ?

now, maybe beating your brother over the head with your Xbox or PS2 is
morally wrong, but 'cheating' in a video game? lol.

Duncan

2004-06-29 20:51:00 UTC

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

NO, who is it hurting when you cheat in a game? nobody! It's your choice.

100 Coin

2005-03-10 08:14:25 UTC

x-no-archive: yes

Post by Xomicron
Is cheating in a video game morally wrong?

No, but it somewhat defeats the object of a game.

DalienX

2005-03-10 16:06:21 UTC